Part One of an Oral History with EDEO Historiographer Emeritus, the Rev. Deacon Robert Carsner
Matt: The date is 14 October 2013 at approximately 1:12 pm. My name is Matt Carmichael and I’m conducting an oral history with Bob Carsner. First, please tell me a little about yourself and your family.
Bob: I’m Bob Carsner, born in The Dalles, Oregon on 20 September 1940. I was a three-month preemie, and so they kept me in the hospital until I was ready to come home. It was New Years Eve when I got back home to the ranch in Spray, Oregon where I was baptized by Rev. Eric O. Robathan, who was the Archdeacon for the Missionary District of Eastern Oregon at the time. When I was three months old, my father died of a heart attack (at age 31), so my mother had to go to work. She worked in Fossil as a registered pharmacist, while the fellow who owned the pharmacy went to war. We moved to The Dalles when I was four years old because Vivian, my older sister, was ready for school and my mother didn’t want her to go to school in Fossil. When we moved to The Dalles, my mother got a job as a pharmacist. We lived with my grandparents until I was in the fifth grade.
Matt: What was your mother’s name?
Bob: My mother’s name was Dorothy Verna Bolton Carsner. We’re part of the Bolton/Rooper clan. My Grandfather Bolton was county clerk here for twenty some years. The Carsner’s were from Gilliam and Wheeler Counties. My father’s ranch, which was the Carsner family ranch, was up at Spray. My Grandfather Carsner was a senator and a representative to the state legislature at various times, and at one time was offered the ambassador post at Siam; he didn’t accept the post. My father, apparently, was very unhappy about that because he wanted to ride an elephant; this was when he was a kid. Anyway, we’re an old family in this area. I’m a fourth-generation Oregonian on both sides. I’m not sure what the Carsner’s were in terms of religion. Grandfather Rooper was Mr. Episcopalian. He was a graduate of the Royal Agricultural College and he came to Eastern Oregon to raise sheep, and that’s what he did. The Rooper’s have been here for generations. The Bolton’s came out in 1854, so we have deep roots in Oregon.
Matt: So you knew your grandparents pretty well?
Bob: I knew my grandparents on the Bolton and Rooper side, because two brothers married two sisters. Therefore, on the Bolton side, we have double cousins. There were ten children (five boys and five girls) in the Rooper family. My grandmother was the oldest girl. My grandfather was the oldest of the Bolton boys. My grandmother Rooper was of the German extraction, and my grandfather was English. My Great-grandmother came to Shaniko, Oregon to work in the hotel (Columbia Southern Hotel) and that’s how she met my great-grandfather, who was an early sheep rancher. The Bolton’s and Rooper’s were large families, and I have always had aunts, uncles and cousins by the dozens.
Matt: What are some of your earliest memories of church in Eastern Oregon?
Bob: My earliest memories of the church were when we lived in Fossil. We attended a Methodist church because that was the church that was available. When we came down to The Dalles, we immediately became involved in the Episcopal community and old St. Paul’s Church. Old St. Paul’s is the oldest of the Nevius churches, as far as I know, or at least the oldest standing Nevius churches. The first services were held on Christmas Day of 1875. Then, I believe the church in Canyon City was built in 1876, and then the chapel at Cove in 1878. Those are the three Nevius churches that were least affected. St. Paul’s has been least frapped with, and I believe that the church at Cove has not been added to; St. Paul’s was at least added to twice. In 1900, they pushed it out to the street and removed the front of old St. Paul’s. Actually, the front door of Remington Hall was the old entrance, and then that wall had a round window. The three roundels from that window--when you walk into St. Paul’s now, you go up the stairs, you see these three round windows--those were the trinity windows that was in the gable. Then, of course, they added the chancel later. The windows, both the side aisle and the end window were done by Booth and Slack in Orange, New Jersey. The east window is dedicated to the son of Colonel Eaton, who was the paymaster at Fort Vancouver; his son was at Annapolis and died at the age of 18, I think, and he is memorialized in that window. The “Consider the Lillie’s” window is the only Povey window in St. Paul’s. The Povey brothers of Portland did a lot of domestic and church stained glass up and down the west coast. The finest example of their work is found in old St. Peter’s Catholic Church in The Dalles, which was dedicated in 1898, and it has beautiful stained glass windows. There are fine examples of their work in several of the Portland Churches. Now I’m blabbering on about things that are not Episcopalian, but church related none the less.
Matt: Tell me more about what was it like growing up Episcopalian in the Diocese of Eastern Oregon.
Bob: Well, I’ll tell you. The first place I remember… I remember Sunday school being great fun, I enjoyed that. We practically lived next door to the old Methodist church, which stood on the corner (it was right across the street from the court house). I did the Summer Bible School at the Methodist church. St. Paul’s had a very active Sunday school, the church was well attended, and we had large classes. Ernie Taylor was our minister there for 35-37 years. Rev. Taylor was formative in my life; he was an interesting man. I think that he came to us from Virginia originally. I know he went to seminary in Virginia, and I know he was a low churchman, as was our Bishop (Barton). Bishop Barton was notorious as a low churchman. He was a very interesting man, and had a beautiful voice. He had this great voice, this great BOOMING voice that I will never forget. I swear you could meet him at midnight in the darkest part of Africa and you would still recognize him because of that voice; well it was just a terrific voice. He was a very large man, he looked a little like a boxer, and when he was out of “mufdi”, he didn’t look at all what you would expect a Bishop to look like.
(The interview came to a pause at this point when Bob’s caregiver Jessie walked in. We continued moments later).
Matt (speaking to the digital voice recorder): Okay, continuing our oral history with Bob Carsner.
Bob: Well you were asking what it was like to grow up an Episcopalian in Eastern Oregon and The Dalles. Well of course, your first contact was at St. Paul's; I went to Sunday school there and, then like I said, we had summer Bible school at the Methodist Church which was across the street from the courthouse and then the Episcopal Church which is only two blocks away. My Grandmother and her sister were part of the altar Guild (at St. Paul’s) and some of my earliest memories were of my grandmother taking care of me when I was young, and I remember sitting in the church waiting for my grandmother to do altar work and watching what was going on.
I often sat in on the weekly Guild meetings; I sat in the corner and played and the one thing I remembered was that Ernie Taylor, who was always a presence in the church, always sat in on meetings. Rev. Taylor was very quiet and didn't run meetings, but he was always there as an advisor in case they needed a question answered. I can remember him sitting in this great high-backed chair which was right next to the kitchen door in Remington Hall. Remington Hall was built in the 1930’s and was in addition to the church; there were side doors that took you into… well the building hasn't changed much since it was built, but you can see how it was done.
I can remember seeing him (Rev. Taylor) sitting there quietly at these meetings, he was always there; he sort of sat in the background but he was always there to be in advisor if you needed it. He was a wonderful sermonizer, I didn't understand his sermons, but I remember him very well because he was a very soft-spoken man, and just a wonderful person. He and his wife lived in the house right next to the church. That house was built in the 1930’s, and was brand-new at the time. It was actually built, or it was designed by the man for whom the school of architecture at the University of Oregon was named, Lawrence Hall. Mr. Lawrence designed the rectory to replace an old one that burned just before…well I think the Taylors were the first and only residents in that house, so anyway.
Then, I remember Sunday school was always in Remington Hall. Remington Hall later became the diocesan offices of course. Remington Hall existed of the room with the fireplace and there was a large room back beyond and they had all of their major dinners and all of that there in Remington Hall. It looks awfully small now, but it was a very nice place. I remember our Bazaar every fall; we had a Christmas Bazaar which went on for 50 some years. St. Paul's was the first church to start that and it was always great fun because my Aunt Margret always cooked for it and the food was always wonderful; potlucks were always a great thing.
I have many fond memories of sitting in the church and later on, at a young age, I was very involved with the HYC (House of Young Churchmen); it had various names, but there were all sorts of groups for young people. One of the great traditions that Ernie Taylor had was that every Easter he bought flats of pansies and every Easter we would get a pansy to take home and plant. That was part of the Easter gathering and it was a fond memory; we've given up many of these things, but they were always great fun and they were always highlights for the kids.
I was always a singer so I joined the choir at an early age and I remember even acolyting occasionally, actually the only acolyting I did was at old St. Paul's where I carried the cross occasionally. I can remember it was always great fun for me to be a part of the choir because I learned all of my chants from two sopranos who sat on either side of me, so if nothing else, my voice was loud. It was very true voice I think because I sang until my voice broke. I didn't sing for a while and then I went from soprano to bass baritone and never hit the tenor range. Anyway, I was a denizen of both ends of the spectrum and when I was in full voice I had a four-octave range, so I could sing almost anything. I started in choir, oh, when I was eight or nine years old. I was actually confirmed at age 10 rather than earlier (pauses, thinks) yes I was ten; usually they insisted that you be 12, but Ernie decided that I was interested enough, and at that time, he allowed me to become communicant at… I think I was 11.
I don’t remember the exact day (of confirmation), but I can remember how it felt. Well first, we had several months of training beforehand; you had catechism classes but we didn't have to memorize the catechisms. Ernie did a very good job of teaching us about church history and all of that. Then, I can remember that my partner was Bob Johnson. I also remember how it felt when Bishop Barton put his hands on my head and confirmed me; it's one of my most vivid memories because I felt so hot, I mean talk about hot hands. Our Lutheran pastor always teases John about having the hot hands because he can consecrate, you know. Anyway, I said Bishop Barton certainly had hot hands because I can remember how it felt when he pressed down. He was a tall man with a great booming voice and if you ever heard that voice you would never forget it and he preached interesting sermons. Later on I learned to appreciate how good he was at that.
Ernie Taylor was a very quiet and gentle man; he was one of the sweetest people I've ever met. His wife was a very interesting lady; she had a career as a home economics teacher. They had a boy and a girl who were active and always deeply involved in the church. Like I said I remember so well being a part of most of the services. Later on, when I got involved with choir, I also did quite a bit of work with the youth group and I would lead services for them and I remember that I had most of the services memorized because if you repeat them long enough in the cadence -- in fact, one of the things Ernie Taylor did the most beautiful job of reading the services. He would always read his sermons and said that he would never memorize them because if you memorized them, it became rote; so, he insisted on reading the service and did the most beautiful job of reading -- I still remember that when I go back and think of the 1920 prayer book, I still remember the cadences. Ernie had a beautiful voice and knew how to use it, and was a wonderful reader.
Matt: Tell me a little more about what it was like for you being a kid at St. Paul’s.
Bob: I was interested in theater and we did interesting things at St. Paul’s. We did pageants every Christmas and I can remember reciting poetry occasionally. We would do some very creative things later on. As an adult, I became more active at St. Paul’s, and then I became a lay reader; I became a lay reader quite young, and was always interested in participating actively in services, I was never (officially) an acolyte until Rusty came along. When Rusty became our pastor, well Rusty succeeded Ernie, and Rusty was here for, I think he had 11 years, and then we kicked him up stairs, and then Rick Simpson was our next pastor and he was here for five years. Then after Rick Simpson came John Langfeldt. John and I got to know each other almost immediately because, well he had actually came to us from Arabia, but before that he had been in Pine Village in California; he was the pastor at a church where one of my Bolton cousins went to church so John and Harriet came, and John was here for 11 years and then he had a heart attack and then (phone rings), can we stop?
(After a few minutes, we begin again)
Matt: When was your first year in Cove at Ascension School Camp?
Bob: Probably about 1947 or 1948 was my first year at Cove. It was probably about that because I was a camper for about 10 years. I know that my last year as a camper was my senior year in high school.
Matt: Let’s go back to your first years as a camper, what was that like?
Bob: Well, that was where I learned more about the diocese and how it all fit together and how St. Paul's was only a part of the whole thing. Of course, in the old days, Bishop Barton insisted that his staff be a part of the camp program, so the clergy all had to put an appearance at the camp. Cove has always been, for most of us, the heart of the diocese because that's where we learned that the church was something larger than just St. Paul's in The Dalles. You got to meet very interesting people, and one of the first people I met at Cove was Miss Bobby. Miss Bobby’s name was Sophia Robertson and she came to the diocese with the Remington's. The Remington's visited the first year that I was at Cove. Miss Bobby introduced me to Bishop and Mrs. Remington, and they were a delight to me because I had, of course, heard a lot about them; the Remington Hall was named after them. Bishop Remington was quite close to my family apparently, and one of the few letters I've seen from him was to my great grandmother, who invited him up to Antelope for a picnic. Bishop Remington had to refuse because they couldn't make it. It was kind of exciting for me when I met Bishop Remington and his wife, because they were both able to tell me stories about my great-grandfather that I never heard. For instance, they always stayed with him when they went to Antelope and they remembered him well; they said that he was an English gentleman and that he was always entertained them when they were in Antelope. My great-grandfather was very much a part of the church in Antelope, and Bishop and Mrs. Remington remembered him well. Miss Bobby remembered my great-grandfather as well, and told me a lot of stories about him since she was the Bishop’s secretary and traveled with him a great deal. Of course, she and Bishop Remington started the camp and he insisted that the clergy be a part of the program always, so you always found that the clergy's taught. That was where I got to meet the clergy from all over the diocese and we had an interesting collection of clergy over the years; there were some really interesting people.
The first year that I was at Cove, I remember that we had a young rising ‘middler’, a seminary student named Warren C. Skip, who was from New York and he introduced me to Bach. I remember he also liked to play the organ and they had this little pump organ in back and he actually got it to be playable and we had a wonderful time. I remember Warren Skip very well, he was a person who impressed me of course; the Bishop and Mrs. Remington as well, and Bobby of course, became the cornerstone of the camp. Hazel Morrison was the Director of Christian Education and she was a trained church worker, I believe she went to St. Margaret's. Hazel was trained in media and taught crafts at Cove. Crafts were very interesting in those days because you had an almost unlimited budget. I remember that we did copper work; we did copper enameling among other things. I remember that we did hammered copper work and then we also did leather work. I made several belts over the years and they had wonderful tools. We had a wonderful education program there. Of course, Cove started as a girl’s school and there was also a boy’s school down the street, but the girl’s school lasted only about five years and then it burned, and the land was not used. If it wasn't going to be used than it would revert back to the family. I don’t remember what year Cove started.
(I show Bob some of the photographs I scanned from Ascension School Camp, including an Intermediate Camp photo from 1953, which can be seen on the photo blog).
Bob: Yeah that was the residence at one time. The only building, when we were there that was original was Morris Hall. I could be in that photo, because that's Morris Hall as it looked when I first went there. I don’t remember what camp I was at in 1953. We've always had large camps in those days in the 1950's and they were all Episcopalians. The thing that I can remember was that we always had large camps and every clergyman was expected to spend at least a week at Cove. Bishop wanted them all to be there and he insisted on that. Have you got pictures of what the chapel looked like when it was first built?
Matt: Yes, but I have not scanned them yet. (I continue showing Bob scanned photographs of Ascension School and Camp).
Bob: Well, as you can see, we had large camps at Cove. Most of the buildings…well, the dining hall was out in the middle of the camp and the girl’s cabins were on one side and the boy’s cabins were on the other. The two log cabins, well now they’re out buildings, were very small. Looking at them now, you wonder, how did you get 10 people into that tiny space? Now the dorms are so much larger and there's so much more space. Basically the running water was outside, so you had to wash in cold water and you didn't have much, well it was really very primitive in a way.
Matt: That’s very interesting, you wouldn’t think that in the 1950’s it would all be that primitive.
Bob: Yes, well, the first camp was all under tents, in fact, we have pictures of the tents. I don’t even know what they’re using it for now, but (Clarence) Kopp Cabin was a storage building; it was just a timber building in fact it had a tent roof the first year I was there. Now it has been moved, and they have built the new dorms and those are not going to be moved for quite a while because those were built to last.
Matt: Are you talking about the cabins next to Founder’s Hall?
Bob, Yes, I'm talking about the A-frame cabins, and they stood right in the middle of camp, and there's a depression where this stood and then the dining hall, which is now the craft hall, and of course, that originally was a church. That was the church in Union I think that they moved, then built what is now the craft hall, but in my day that was the dining hall for the whole camp. You always woke up to the bell and then you went and had hot cocoa before you went to church because that would put something in your stomach so that we didn't have too many people fainting from lack of… well, of course in the old days you were supposed to have a fast for communion. I remember my sister at least once fainted during communion, because she had had nothing since midnight. You saw people go down occasionally and so we were always taught to grab a cup of cocoa before we went to church. After chapel in the morning, then you went to breakfast. The routine actually hasn't changed all that much. It's later now and anyway, it hasn't changed much, it's more modern, but it's still the heart of the diocese.
The thing about Cove is that it introduced me to people from not only the other parishes, but we formed friendships that have lasted all of our lives. I still have friends from Cove, and I have one young man, I believe he’s in Ramallah, Israel now and he is a monk, and that's Frank Beaver; he's also an iconographer, and I would love to have one of his icons but I haven't seen Frank in so many years and I'm not sure if he's still living. Anyway, a lot of very deep friendships were founded at Cove, and that's why Cove has always been very important to me. We have also met people from all over the world. Desmond Tutu came and taught at Cove and there's a beautiful picture of him sitting on the chapel steps teaching a class. I was not there that year, I did not get to meet Bishop Tutu until his last visit and I was fortunate to serve at the altar for him. I was a deacon of the mass that day because Steve couldn't and so I felt very privileged. I actually ended up following him as that man danced down the aisle, because he was having so much fun. It was just so exciting for him because he's a really loving man, he just embraces people and his son-in-law is very much like him. Mrs. Tutu also seemed to be a very warm person, but I didn’t get to talk to her, I barely met the Bishop but he was wonderful.
Matt: When was this?
Bob: Recently, he came and did a lecture in Portland and was invited by Rusty and it's one of the annual lectures I think that at Portland University. We were privileged to be there and we heard him speak about his role in the settlement in Africa. You see, the thing is, I don't think Bishop Remington brought many people in, but Bishop Barton had good connections and so the Bishop of Sheffield came to visit Cove one year and here came Bishop Barton with his head in a bandanna and I said “is that your mitre?”, and he said “no, my hair was damp and I had to put it up”. Miss Bobby would dare me to smart off at the Bishop occasionally, and the Bishop always took it in good stride thank Heaven; he was great fun, but Bishop Barton would never wear anything but a rochet and chimere. I remember that I went to the consecration of Bishop Matthew Bigliardi in Portland, and everyone was in cope and mitre and there was Bishop Barton in rochet and chimere.
I used to tease Rusty and say that “oh we’re going to have Morning Prayer”, and he would say “no, we’re having communion”, and I said, “well you’re not dressed for it, you’re in your house dress”. I would say that because that’s what you wore for Morning Prayer. He and I would go round and round about whether he was proper or not, and I used to tease him, and he, thank heaven, would put up with it. Occasionally, he would get a little miffed because I would push a little too much, but it was always great fun.
Matt: Yes, when Rusty introduced me to you, I could tell that you two were great friends.
Bob: He’s always been a good friend and encouraged me to be who I am. Well, I self-identified myself with the church… well, I knew that I had a position in the church and wanted to be part of the church but I didn't know where. Finally, it hit me when we were doing ministry of all the baptized, I sort of self identified, and said that I'm not quite sure where I want to be. At one time, I thought about being a monk, and and I thought, no I like people too much. Then I thought, well, I really don't think I'd be a good priest but by golly when I started to think about it, I realized that my whole life has been a life of service. As a speech pathologist, what was I doing? I was helping people all the time and that's what the deacon does. Our archdeacon, the venerable James Mosier, who I used tease and refer to him as the “venerable” because that's the proper title for a deacon. Anyway, I used to tease him and we got to know each other well. His father was the County Sheriff here for many years and I knew the family well as they were all part of the courthouse. The Mosier’s were very good Episcopalians, so I got to know them well. Anyway, where was I…oh yes, I finally decided that I was a servant and that’s where I belong, and I’m very happy to have been that for as I long as I have, and I didn’t want to be anything more or less than that.
Matt: How did you become interested in history and lore gathering?
Bob: I became interested in lore gathering at Cove, because Miss Bobby had the history, and then Hazel was a wonderful resource and of course Louis (Perkins) was our historiographer for years; he wrote, and I was never a writer so I knew that I would never write like he did. We also have many treasures, for instance we have among our treasures, one of the things that we did track down was the chalice that was supposed to have been used at Valley Forge. I still want to find out if that is true because it could be. I did do the research on that, I snatched it away from Rusty and took it down to Portland and had someone look at it and they told me that had been gilded and had been fire gilded at one time and that was why the yellow was showing. I thought it was base metal showing through silver plate. I know that it was sterling silver and then it was fire gilded.
Matt: Could you talk more about how you were inspired to become a lore gatherer? You said that Louis was an inspiration?
Bob: Louis was partially responsible for me becoming a lore gatherer, and my own interest in the history of Cove. We would go and look for all of the old things, we would always go exploring in the chapel. For instance, we dug up part of the original set of prayer books that were in red morocco; they were a set by Mr. French's family.
Matt: You said we, who else would help you explore?
Bob: Usually, I had a cohort, Frank Beaver. We were good friends and interested in history. We always tagged along after Ms. Bobby because she was a good storyteller and it was always fun to hear the stories about Cove and about Bishop and Mrs. Remington when they were there. My mother was a storyteller and she was much better than I in that her stories never varied but she would repeat them because we loved them. Ms. Bobby gave us a lot of information, and Hazel was a gold mine of information and then we had the various priests, for instance Dr. Tradget was a very interesting man. We also had Eric Robathan “Roby” who was of English extraction and had a beautiful accent and also had a wicked aim with a squirt gun. If you were a slug-a-bed, he could get you from the door of the cabin. Now, all these things are the things that I remember about Cove and I remember that two of the clergy had a wonderful water pistol fight out the middle of the campus one day and they had a shoot out. Then you had parades of the “ancient and horrible”. There was always interesting things at Cove and there were stories to tell about the people at Cove. We would have campfires and tell stories. Another thing I would always do at campfires would be to tell kids Indian legends that were local to the area. I have a wonderful book of Indian legends of the Pacific Northwest and there are sections of the book that no matter where you are you can always tell an Indian tale that relates to the area that you're in, and there's a wealth of that lore. That’s where I learned to be a lore keeper, I think.
I'm interested in Cove and its history. I'm also interested in the history of the Indian culture. On the weekends we used to go out looking for arrowheads in the old days. I have a wonderful collection of Indian relics because we would go and dig in-house pits. Well, I wouldn't do it now but it wasn't illegal then. It is now and we actually explored several Indian graves. There was a large war grave, Dr. Cressman saw it, and he said that it was probably a war grave. The one thing that was interesting out of that we found charcoal and bone carving. I didn't know a lot about archaeology until I had the opportunity to work at Wake Map Mound. Wake Map Mound was three miles above in the middle of Horse Thief Lake, and that was the largest Indian mound on the West Coast and they excavated it and I was fortunate enough to work under the tutelage of the archaeologist who was digging that out. He had us work one summer, so I actually learned a little bit about archaeology. B. Robert Butler was the archaeologist.
Matt: Where did you graduate high school?
Bob: I graduated from high school here in The Dalles; everything was here in The Dalles.
Matt: What did you do after high school?
Bob: Well, after high school I went directly to college at the University of Oregon where I studied English. I was going to be an English teacher. My grades weren’t good enough, and so in my junior year I switched to Public Address and Rhetoric. I actually graduated with my degree in Public Address and Rhetoric with minors in Theater and Radio.
Matt: Why did you change majors?
Bob: Well, speech came easier for me and I liked it that's why I switched majors, and I was interested in theater. I was an actor and I was active in theater in high school and then when I came back to The Dalles, I was one of the founding members of what is now the Theater Company. I didn't actually do any acting at the University. I worked in the theater in that I took tickets and that sort of thing. I was involved with theater in that I did a couple of courses in theater and had my own radio show. I had a radio show in my senior year at the University of Oregon, it was about 1961 or 62. I was not able to get my teaching certificate because I failed student teaching and so I went up to the Eastern Oregon and spent a year there at Eastern Oregon University in La Grande, Oregon. I was there for a year. I had a radio show on KWAX every Saturday afternoon and I had an Opera show at UO, and that was one of the fun things I did.
Matt: What inspired you to host an opera radio show?
Bob: I had a collection of Opera recordings for heaven sakes, and I love Opera and I had fun doing it. It gave me something else to do and I enjoyed doing it, and then I went to Eastern Oregon and then I came back, but didn't get my student teaching finished. I came back to The Dalles, and the only job I could find was up at Columbia Park as a psychiatric aide, working with the mentally retarded and I loved that.
Stay tuned for Part Two of this oral history with Bob Carsner.
Matt Carmichael
Matt: The date is 14 October 2013 at approximately 1:12 pm. My name is Matt Carmichael and I’m conducting an oral history with Bob Carsner. First, please tell me a little about yourself and your family.
Bob: I’m Bob Carsner, born in The Dalles, Oregon on 20 September 1940. I was a three-month preemie, and so they kept me in the hospital until I was ready to come home. It was New Years Eve when I got back home to the ranch in Spray, Oregon where I was baptized by Rev. Eric O. Robathan, who was the Archdeacon for the Missionary District of Eastern Oregon at the time. When I was three months old, my father died of a heart attack (at age 31), so my mother had to go to work. She worked in Fossil as a registered pharmacist, while the fellow who owned the pharmacy went to war. We moved to The Dalles when I was four years old because Vivian, my older sister, was ready for school and my mother didn’t want her to go to school in Fossil. When we moved to The Dalles, my mother got a job as a pharmacist. We lived with my grandparents until I was in the fifth grade.
Matt: What was your mother’s name?
Bob: My mother’s name was Dorothy Verna Bolton Carsner. We’re part of the Bolton/Rooper clan. My Grandfather Bolton was county clerk here for twenty some years. The Carsner’s were from Gilliam and Wheeler Counties. My father’s ranch, which was the Carsner family ranch, was up at Spray. My Grandfather Carsner was a senator and a representative to the state legislature at various times, and at one time was offered the ambassador post at Siam; he didn’t accept the post. My father, apparently, was very unhappy about that because he wanted to ride an elephant; this was when he was a kid. Anyway, we’re an old family in this area. I’m a fourth-generation Oregonian on both sides. I’m not sure what the Carsner’s were in terms of religion. Grandfather Rooper was Mr. Episcopalian. He was a graduate of the Royal Agricultural College and he came to Eastern Oregon to raise sheep, and that’s what he did. The Rooper’s have been here for generations. The Bolton’s came out in 1854, so we have deep roots in Oregon.
Matt: So you knew your grandparents pretty well?
Bob: I knew my grandparents on the Bolton and Rooper side, because two brothers married two sisters. Therefore, on the Bolton side, we have double cousins. There were ten children (five boys and five girls) in the Rooper family. My grandmother was the oldest girl. My grandfather was the oldest of the Bolton boys. My grandmother Rooper was of the German extraction, and my grandfather was English. My Great-grandmother came to Shaniko, Oregon to work in the hotel (Columbia Southern Hotel) and that’s how she met my great-grandfather, who was an early sheep rancher. The Bolton’s and Rooper’s were large families, and I have always had aunts, uncles and cousins by the dozens.
Matt: What are some of your earliest memories of church in Eastern Oregon?
Bob: My earliest memories of the church were when we lived in Fossil. We attended a Methodist church because that was the church that was available. When we came down to The Dalles, we immediately became involved in the Episcopal community and old St. Paul’s Church. Old St. Paul’s is the oldest of the Nevius churches, as far as I know, or at least the oldest standing Nevius churches. The first services were held on Christmas Day of 1875. Then, I believe the church in Canyon City was built in 1876, and then the chapel at Cove in 1878. Those are the three Nevius churches that were least affected. St. Paul’s has been least frapped with, and I believe that the church at Cove has not been added to; St. Paul’s was at least added to twice. In 1900, they pushed it out to the street and removed the front of old St. Paul’s. Actually, the front door of Remington Hall was the old entrance, and then that wall had a round window. The three roundels from that window--when you walk into St. Paul’s now, you go up the stairs, you see these three round windows--those were the trinity windows that was in the gable. Then, of course, they added the chancel later. The windows, both the side aisle and the end window were done by Booth and Slack in Orange, New Jersey. The east window is dedicated to the son of Colonel Eaton, who was the paymaster at Fort Vancouver; his son was at Annapolis and died at the age of 18, I think, and he is memorialized in that window. The “Consider the Lillie’s” window is the only Povey window in St. Paul’s. The Povey brothers of Portland did a lot of domestic and church stained glass up and down the west coast. The finest example of their work is found in old St. Peter’s Catholic Church in The Dalles, which was dedicated in 1898, and it has beautiful stained glass windows. There are fine examples of their work in several of the Portland Churches. Now I’m blabbering on about things that are not Episcopalian, but church related none the less.
Matt: Tell me more about what was it like growing up Episcopalian in the Diocese of Eastern Oregon.
Bob: Well, I’ll tell you. The first place I remember… I remember Sunday school being great fun, I enjoyed that. We practically lived next door to the old Methodist church, which stood on the corner (it was right across the street from the court house). I did the Summer Bible School at the Methodist church. St. Paul’s had a very active Sunday school, the church was well attended, and we had large classes. Ernie Taylor was our minister there for 35-37 years. Rev. Taylor was formative in my life; he was an interesting man. I think that he came to us from Virginia originally. I know he went to seminary in Virginia, and I know he was a low churchman, as was our Bishop (Barton). Bishop Barton was notorious as a low churchman. He was a very interesting man, and had a beautiful voice. He had this great voice, this great BOOMING voice that I will never forget. I swear you could meet him at midnight in the darkest part of Africa and you would still recognize him because of that voice; well it was just a terrific voice. He was a very large man, he looked a little like a boxer, and when he was out of “mufdi”, he didn’t look at all what you would expect a Bishop to look like.
(The interview came to a pause at this point when Bob’s caregiver Jessie walked in. We continued moments later).
Matt (speaking to the digital voice recorder): Okay, continuing our oral history with Bob Carsner.
Bob: Well you were asking what it was like to grow up an Episcopalian in Eastern Oregon and The Dalles. Well of course, your first contact was at St. Paul's; I went to Sunday school there and, then like I said, we had summer Bible school at the Methodist Church which was across the street from the courthouse and then the Episcopal Church which is only two blocks away. My Grandmother and her sister were part of the altar Guild (at St. Paul’s) and some of my earliest memories were of my grandmother taking care of me when I was young, and I remember sitting in the church waiting for my grandmother to do altar work and watching what was going on.
I often sat in on the weekly Guild meetings; I sat in the corner and played and the one thing I remembered was that Ernie Taylor, who was always a presence in the church, always sat in on meetings. Rev. Taylor was very quiet and didn't run meetings, but he was always there as an advisor in case they needed a question answered. I can remember him sitting in this great high-backed chair which was right next to the kitchen door in Remington Hall. Remington Hall was built in the 1930’s and was in addition to the church; there were side doors that took you into… well the building hasn't changed much since it was built, but you can see how it was done.
I can remember seeing him (Rev. Taylor) sitting there quietly at these meetings, he was always there; he sort of sat in the background but he was always there to be in advisor if you needed it. He was a wonderful sermonizer, I didn't understand his sermons, but I remember him very well because he was a very soft-spoken man, and just a wonderful person. He and his wife lived in the house right next to the church. That house was built in the 1930’s, and was brand-new at the time. It was actually built, or it was designed by the man for whom the school of architecture at the University of Oregon was named, Lawrence Hall. Mr. Lawrence designed the rectory to replace an old one that burned just before…well I think the Taylors were the first and only residents in that house, so anyway.
Then, I remember Sunday school was always in Remington Hall. Remington Hall later became the diocesan offices of course. Remington Hall existed of the room with the fireplace and there was a large room back beyond and they had all of their major dinners and all of that there in Remington Hall. It looks awfully small now, but it was a very nice place. I remember our Bazaar every fall; we had a Christmas Bazaar which went on for 50 some years. St. Paul's was the first church to start that and it was always great fun because my Aunt Margret always cooked for it and the food was always wonderful; potlucks were always a great thing.
I have many fond memories of sitting in the church and later on, at a young age, I was very involved with the HYC (House of Young Churchmen); it had various names, but there were all sorts of groups for young people. One of the great traditions that Ernie Taylor had was that every Easter he bought flats of pansies and every Easter we would get a pansy to take home and plant. That was part of the Easter gathering and it was a fond memory; we've given up many of these things, but they were always great fun and they were always highlights for the kids.
I was always a singer so I joined the choir at an early age and I remember even acolyting occasionally, actually the only acolyting I did was at old St. Paul's where I carried the cross occasionally. I can remember it was always great fun for me to be a part of the choir because I learned all of my chants from two sopranos who sat on either side of me, so if nothing else, my voice was loud. It was very true voice I think because I sang until my voice broke. I didn't sing for a while and then I went from soprano to bass baritone and never hit the tenor range. Anyway, I was a denizen of both ends of the spectrum and when I was in full voice I had a four-octave range, so I could sing almost anything. I started in choir, oh, when I was eight or nine years old. I was actually confirmed at age 10 rather than earlier (pauses, thinks) yes I was ten; usually they insisted that you be 12, but Ernie decided that I was interested enough, and at that time, he allowed me to become communicant at… I think I was 11.
I don’t remember the exact day (of confirmation), but I can remember how it felt. Well first, we had several months of training beforehand; you had catechism classes but we didn't have to memorize the catechisms. Ernie did a very good job of teaching us about church history and all of that. Then, I can remember that my partner was Bob Johnson. I also remember how it felt when Bishop Barton put his hands on my head and confirmed me; it's one of my most vivid memories because I felt so hot, I mean talk about hot hands. Our Lutheran pastor always teases John about having the hot hands because he can consecrate, you know. Anyway, I said Bishop Barton certainly had hot hands because I can remember how it felt when he pressed down. He was a tall man with a great booming voice and if you ever heard that voice you would never forget it and he preached interesting sermons. Later on I learned to appreciate how good he was at that.
Ernie Taylor was a very quiet and gentle man; he was one of the sweetest people I've ever met. His wife was a very interesting lady; she had a career as a home economics teacher. They had a boy and a girl who were active and always deeply involved in the church. Like I said I remember so well being a part of most of the services. Later on, when I got involved with choir, I also did quite a bit of work with the youth group and I would lead services for them and I remember that I had most of the services memorized because if you repeat them long enough in the cadence -- in fact, one of the things Ernie Taylor did the most beautiful job of reading the services. He would always read his sermons and said that he would never memorize them because if you memorized them, it became rote; so, he insisted on reading the service and did the most beautiful job of reading -- I still remember that when I go back and think of the 1920 prayer book, I still remember the cadences. Ernie had a beautiful voice and knew how to use it, and was a wonderful reader.
Matt: Tell me a little more about what it was like for you being a kid at St. Paul’s.
Bob: I was interested in theater and we did interesting things at St. Paul’s. We did pageants every Christmas and I can remember reciting poetry occasionally. We would do some very creative things later on. As an adult, I became more active at St. Paul’s, and then I became a lay reader; I became a lay reader quite young, and was always interested in participating actively in services, I was never (officially) an acolyte until Rusty came along. When Rusty became our pastor, well Rusty succeeded Ernie, and Rusty was here for, I think he had 11 years, and then we kicked him up stairs, and then Rick Simpson was our next pastor and he was here for five years. Then after Rick Simpson came John Langfeldt. John and I got to know each other almost immediately because, well he had actually came to us from Arabia, but before that he had been in Pine Village in California; he was the pastor at a church where one of my Bolton cousins went to church so John and Harriet came, and John was here for 11 years and then he had a heart attack and then (phone rings), can we stop?
(After a few minutes, we begin again)
Matt: When was your first year in Cove at Ascension School Camp?
Bob: Probably about 1947 or 1948 was my first year at Cove. It was probably about that because I was a camper for about 10 years. I know that my last year as a camper was my senior year in high school.
Matt: Let’s go back to your first years as a camper, what was that like?
Bob: Well, that was where I learned more about the diocese and how it all fit together and how St. Paul's was only a part of the whole thing. Of course, in the old days, Bishop Barton insisted that his staff be a part of the camp program, so the clergy all had to put an appearance at the camp. Cove has always been, for most of us, the heart of the diocese because that's where we learned that the church was something larger than just St. Paul's in The Dalles. You got to meet very interesting people, and one of the first people I met at Cove was Miss Bobby. Miss Bobby’s name was Sophia Robertson and she came to the diocese with the Remington's. The Remington's visited the first year that I was at Cove. Miss Bobby introduced me to Bishop and Mrs. Remington, and they were a delight to me because I had, of course, heard a lot about them; the Remington Hall was named after them. Bishop Remington was quite close to my family apparently, and one of the few letters I've seen from him was to my great grandmother, who invited him up to Antelope for a picnic. Bishop Remington had to refuse because they couldn't make it. It was kind of exciting for me when I met Bishop Remington and his wife, because they were both able to tell me stories about my great-grandfather that I never heard. For instance, they always stayed with him when they went to Antelope and they remembered him well; they said that he was an English gentleman and that he was always entertained them when they were in Antelope. My great-grandfather was very much a part of the church in Antelope, and Bishop and Mrs. Remington remembered him well. Miss Bobby remembered my great-grandfather as well, and told me a lot of stories about him since she was the Bishop’s secretary and traveled with him a great deal. Of course, she and Bishop Remington started the camp and he insisted that the clergy be a part of the program always, so you always found that the clergy's taught. That was where I got to meet the clergy from all over the diocese and we had an interesting collection of clergy over the years; there were some really interesting people.
The first year that I was at Cove, I remember that we had a young rising ‘middler’, a seminary student named Warren C. Skip, who was from New York and he introduced me to Bach. I remember he also liked to play the organ and they had this little pump organ in back and he actually got it to be playable and we had a wonderful time. I remember Warren Skip very well, he was a person who impressed me of course; the Bishop and Mrs. Remington as well, and Bobby of course, became the cornerstone of the camp. Hazel Morrison was the Director of Christian Education and she was a trained church worker, I believe she went to St. Margaret's. Hazel was trained in media and taught crafts at Cove. Crafts were very interesting in those days because you had an almost unlimited budget. I remember that we did copper work; we did copper enameling among other things. I remember that we did hammered copper work and then we also did leather work. I made several belts over the years and they had wonderful tools. We had a wonderful education program there. Of course, Cove started as a girl’s school and there was also a boy’s school down the street, but the girl’s school lasted only about five years and then it burned, and the land was not used. If it wasn't going to be used than it would revert back to the family. I don’t remember what year Cove started.
(I show Bob some of the photographs I scanned from Ascension School Camp, including an Intermediate Camp photo from 1953, which can be seen on the photo blog).
Bob: Yeah that was the residence at one time. The only building, when we were there that was original was Morris Hall. I could be in that photo, because that's Morris Hall as it looked when I first went there. I don’t remember what camp I was at in 1953. We've always had large camps in those days in the 1950's and they were all Episcopalians. The thing that I can remember was that we always had large camps and every clergyman was expected to spend at least a week at Cove. Bishop wanted them all to be there and he insisted on that. Have you got pictures of what the chapel looked like when it was first built?
Matt: Yes, but I have not scanned them yet. (I continue showing Bob scanned photographs of Ascension School and Camp).
Bob: Well, as you can see, we had large camps at Cove. Most of the buildings…well, the dining hall was out in the middle of the camp and the girl’s cabins were on one side and the boy’s cabins were on the other. The two log cabins, well now they’re out buildings, were very small. Looking at them now, you wonder, how did you get 10 people into that tiny space? Now the dorms are so much larger and there's so much more space. Basically the running water was outside, so you had to wash in cold water and you didn't have much, well it was really very primitive in a way.
Matt: That’s very interesting, you wouldn’t think that in the 1950’s it would all be that primitive.
Bob: Yes, well, the first camp was all under tents, in fact, we have pictures of the tents. I don’t even know what they’re using it for now, but (Clarence) Kopp Cabin was a storage building; it was just a timber building in fact it had a tent roof the first year I was there. Now it has been moved, and they have built the new dorms and those are not going to be moved for quite a while because those were built to last.
Matt: Are you talking about the cabins next to Founder’s Hall?
Bob, Yes, I'm talking about the A-frame cabins, and they stood right in the middle of camp, and there's a depression where this stood and then the dining hall, which is now the craft hall, and of course, that originally was a church. That was the church in Union I think that they moved, then built what is now the craft hall, but in my day that was the dining hall for the whole camp. You always woke up to the bell and then you went and had hot cocoa before you went to church because that would put something in your stomach so that we didn't have too many people fainting from lack of… well, of course in the old days you were supposed to have a fast for communion. I remember my sister at least once fainted during communion, because she had had nothing since midnight. You saw people go down occasionally and so we were always taught to grab a cup of cocoa before we went to church. After chapel in the morning, then you went to breakfast. The routine actually hasn't changed all that much. It's later now and anyway, it hasn't changed much, it's more modern, but it's still the heart of the diocese.
The thing about Cove is that it introduced me to people from not only the other parishes, but we formed friendships that have lasted all of our lives. I still have friends from Cove, and I have one young man, I believe he’s in Ramallah, Israel now and he is a monk, and that's Frank Beaver; he's also an iconographer, and I would love to have one of his icons but I haven't seen Frank in so many years and I'm not sure if he's still living. Anyway, a lot of very deep friendships were founded at Cove, and that's why Cove has always been very important to me. We have also met people from all over the world. Desmond Tutu came and taught at Cove and there's a beautiful picture of him sitting on the chapel steps teaching a class. I was not there that year, I did not get to meet Bishop Tutu until his last visit and I was fortunate to serve at the altar for him. I was a deacon of the mass that day because Steve couldn't and so I felt very privileged. I actually ended up following him as that man danced down the aisle, because he was having so much fun. It was just so exciting for him because he's a really loving man, he just embraces people and his son-in-law is very much like him. Mrs. Tutu also seemed to be a very warm person, but I didn’t get to talk to her, I barely met the Bishop but he was wonderful.
Matt: When was this?
Bob: Recently, he came and did a lecture in Portland and was invited by Rusty and it's one of the annual lectures I think that at Portland University. We were privileged to be there and we heard him speak about his role in the settlement in Africa. You see, the thing is, I don't think Bishop Remington brought many people in, but Bishop Barton had good connections and so the Bishop of Sheffield came to visit Cove one year and here came Bishop Barton with his head in a bandanna and I said “is that your mitre?”, and he said “no, my hair was damp and I had to put it up”. Miss Bobby would dare me to smart off at the Bishop occasionally, and the Bishop always took it in good stride thank Heaven; he was great fun, but Bishop Barton would never wear anything but a rochet and chimere. I remember that I went to the consecration of Bishop Matthew Bigliardi in Portland, and everyone was in cope and mitre and there was Bishop Barton in rochet and chimere.
I used to tease Rusty and say that “oh we’re going to have Morning Prayer”, and he would say “no, we’re having communion”, and I said, “well you’re not dressed for it, you’re in your house dress”. I would say that because that’s what you wore for Morning Prayer. He and I would go round and round about whether he was proper or not, and I used to tease him, and he, thank heaven, would put up with it. Occasionally, he would get a little miffed because I would push a little too much, but it was always great fun.
Matt: Yes, when Rusty introduced me to you, I could tell that you two were great friends.
Bob: He’s always been a good friend and encouraged me to be who I am. Well, I self-identified myself with the church… well, I knew that I had a position in the church and wanted to be part of the church but I didn't know where. Finally, it hit me when we were doing ministry of all the baptized, I sort of self identified, and said that I'm not quite sure where I want to be. At one time, I thought about being a monk, and and I thought, no I like people too much. Then I thought, well, I really don't think I'd be a good priest but by golly when I started to think about it, I realized that my whole life has been a life of service. As a speech pathologist, what was I doing? I was helping people all the time and that's what the deacon does. Our archdeacon, the venerable James Mosier, who I used tease and refer to him as the “venerable” because that's the proper title for a deacon. Anyway, I used to tease him and we got to know each other well. His father was the County Sheriff here for many years and I knew the family well as they were all part of the courthouse. The Mosier’s were very good Episcopalians, so I got to know them well. Anyway, where was I…oh yes, I finally decided that I was a servant and that’s where I belong, and I’m very happy to have been that for as I long as I have, and I didn’t want to be anything more or less than that.
Matt: How did you become interested in history and lore gathering?
Bob: I became interested in lore gathering at Cove, because Miss Bobby had the history, and then Hazel was a wonderful resource and of course Louis (Perkins) was our historiographer for years; he wrote, and I was never a writer so I knew that I would never write like he did. We also have many treasures, for instance we have among our treasures, one of the things that we did track down was the chalice that was supposed to have been used at Valley Forge. I still want to find out if that is true because it could be. I did do the research on that, I snatched it away from Rusty and took it down to Portland and had someone look at it and they told me that had been gilded and had been fire gilded at one time and that was why the yellow was showing. I thought it was base metal showing through silver plate. I know that it was sterling silver and then it was fire gilded.
Matt: Could you talk more about how you were inspired to become a lore gatherer? You said that Louis was an inspiration?
Bob: Louis was partially responsible for me becoming a lore gatherer, and my own interest in the history of Cove. We would go and look for all of the old things, we would always go exploring in the chapel. For instance, we dug up part of the original set of prayer books that were in red morocco; they were a set by Mr. French's family.
Matt: You said we, who else would help you explore?
Bob: Usually, I had a cohort, Frank Beaver. We were good friends and interested in history. We always tagged along after Ms. Bobby because she was a good storyteller and it was always fun to hear the stories about Cove and about Bishop and Mrs. Remington when they were there. My mother was a storyteller and she was much better than I in that her stories never varied but she would repeat them because we loved them. Ms. Bobby gave us a lot of information, and Hazel was a gold mine of information and then we had the various priests, for instance Dr. Tradget was a very interesting man. We also had Eric Robathan “Roby” who was of English extraction and had a beautiful accent and also had a wicked aim with a squirt gun. If you were a slug-a-bed, he could get you from the door of the cabin. Now, all these things are the things that I remember about Cove and I remember that two of the clergy had a wonderful water pistol fight out the middle of the campus one day and they had a shoot out. Then you had parades of the “ancient and horrible”. There was always interesting things at Cove and there were stories to tell about the people at Cove. We would have campfires and tell stories. Another thing I would always do at campfires would be to tell kids Indian legends that were local to the area. I have a wonderful book of Indian legends of the Pacific Northwest and there are sections of the book that no matter where you are you can always tell an Indian tale that relates to the area that you're in, and there's a wealth of that lore. That’s where I learned to be a lore keeper, I think.
I'm interested in Cove and its history. I'm also interested in the history of the Indian culture. On the weekends we used to go out looking for arrowheads in the old days. I have a wonderful collection of Indian relics because we would go and dig in-house pits. Well, I wouldn't do it now but it wasn't illegal then. It is now and we actually explored several Indian graves. There was a large war grave, Dr. Cressman saw it, and he said that it was probably a war grave. The one thing that was interesting out of that we found charcoal and bone carving. I didn't know a lot about archaeology until I had the opportunity to work at Wake Map Mound. Wake Map Mound was three miles above in the middle of Horse Thief Lake, and that was the largest Indian mound on the West Coast and they excavated it and I was fortunate enough to work under the tutelage of the archaeologist who was digging that out. He had us work one summer, so I actually learned a little bit about archaeology. B. Robert Butler was the archaeologist.
Matt: Where did you graduate high school?
Bob: I graduated from high school here in The Dalles; everything was here in The Dalles.
Matt: What did you do after high school?
Bob: Well, after high school I went directly to college at the University of Oregon where I studied English. I was going to be an English teacher. My grades weren’t good enough, and so in my junior year I switched to Public Address and Rhetoric. I actually graduated with my degree in Public Address and Rhetoric with minors in Theater and Radio.
Matt: Why did you change majors?
Bob: Well, speech came easier for me and I liked it that's why I switched majors, and I was interested in theater. I was an actor and I was active in theater in high school and then when I came back to The Dalles, I was one of the founding members of what is now the Theater Company. I didn't actually do any acting at the University. I worked in the theater in that I took tickets and that sort of thing. I was involved with theater in that I did a couple of courses in theater and had my own radio show. I had a radio show in my senior year at the University of Oregon, it was about 1961 or 62. I was not able to get my teaching certificate because I failed student teaching and so I went up to the Eastern Oregon and spent a year there at Eastern Oregon University in La Grande, Oregon. I was there for a year. I had a radio show on KWAX every Saturday afternoon and I had an Opera show at UO, and that was one of the fun things I did.
Matt: What inspired you to host an opera radio show?
Bob: I had a collection of Opera recordings for heaven sakes, and I love Opera and I had fun doing it. It gave me something else to do and I enjoyed doing it, and then I went to Eastern Oregon and then I came back, but didn't get my student teaching finished. I came back to The Dalles, and the only job I could find was up at Columbia Park as a psychiatric aide, working with the mentally retarded and I loved that.
Stay tuned for Part Two of this oral history with Bob Carsner.
Matt Carmichael